مظاهر گودرزی: با افغانستانی‌های مهاجر در ایران چه‌کار کنیم؟ آنها را از کشور اخراج کنیم یا برعکس به آنها خدمات بدهیم؟ بعد از این‌که مهاجران غیرقانونی شناسایی شدند کدام تصمیم درست است؟ اصلاً می‌توانیم این مهاجران را شناسایی کنیم؟ این پرسش‌ها به همراه موارد یگر درباره جامعه افغانستانی‌های مهاجر در ایران مطرح است، پاسخ به آنها میان مخالفان مشخص است، آن‌طورکه به‌نظر می‌رسد معدل جامعه با اخراج این گروه از کشور موافق هستند، یا حداقل این‌که طیف موافق با اخراج اتباع قدرت رسانه‌ای بیشتری برای ظهور و بروز ایده‌های خود دارند، اما در این میان گروهی دیگری هستند که کمی سمت‌وسوی متفاوت دارند، یعنی اگرچه با شناسایی و هویت دادن به مهاجران افغانستانی موافق‌اند اما برگ اخراج را به‌عنوان اولین راه حل مواجهه با مسئله اتباع رو نمی‌کنند، آنها معتقدند حتی اگر این مهاجران اخراج شوند با توجه به شرایط افغانستان مجدد به ایران برمی‌گردند، بنابراین از نگاه این گروه برنامه‌ریزی درباره مسئله اتباع افغانستانی در ایران نیاز به رویگردی اخلاق‌مدارانه دارد، رویکردی که در آن به ارائه فرصت‌ها تاکید می‌کند تا حداقل مهاجران افغانستانی بتوانند با کسب امتیازی وضعیت مهاجرت خود را مشخص کنند، یعنی اگر قرار است مهاجر قانونی شوند پس باید مانند سایر مهاجران در کشورهای دیگر از حقوقی برخوردار باشند.
سیمین کاظمی، پزشک و جامعه‌شناس در گفت‌وگویی با بارز نیوز با رویکرد متفاوتی به مسئله مهاجران افغانستانی در ایران می‌پردازد، متن کامل این گفت‌وگو را در ادامه بخوانید.
حتی با تکیه بر ایده‌های اخلاقی ما باید بپذیریم که این سطح از مهاجران افغانستانی وارد ایران شوند؟
واقعیت این است که بعد از قدرت گرفتن طالبان تعداد زیادی از مهاجران افغانستانی از روی اجبار و به خاطر شرایط ناامن مجبور شدند به کشورهای دیگر پناهنده شوند از جمله کشور ما ایران، در این میان بسته به نگرش افراد برخی مخالف حضورشان در ایران هستند، حتی عنوان می‌کنند ۸ میلیون افغانستانی در ایران هستند و کسی هم از این گروه نمی‌پرسد براساس کدام شواهد صحبت می‌کنید. ما نمی‌گوییم پذیرش این گروه در ایران بدون ضابطه باشد یا با طرح ایده‌های احساسی بگوییم درها را باز کنیم تا همه بیایند، به هر حال هر کشوری برای مرزهای خود کنترلی دارد، اما موضوع ما این است که وقتی جمعیتی وارد یک کشور شدند باید برای آنها برنامه‌ریزی صورت بگیرد.
مبنای این برنامه‌ریزی چیست؟
این برنامه‌ریزی باید براساس اصول انسانی و اخلاقی باشد، باید توجه کنیم که این غیرمنطقی هست که انتظار داشته باشیم اخراج همه این افراد با موفقیت همراه خواهد بود، چنین امکانی وجود ندارد، تجربه این است که بسیاری از اینها ردمرز می شوند و بلافاصله برمی گردند. بنابراین اینها جمعیتی هستند که در ایران هستند و ما ناچاریم که فکری به حال آنها بکنیم.
یعنی شما با رد مرز شدن افغانستانی‌های مهاجر در ایران مخالف هستید؟
رد مرز کردن قوانین دارد، اگر مهاجر در کشوری جرمی مرتکب شود ممکن است او را اخراج کنند یا به او فرصت دهند که از کشور میزبان برود. اما این‌که ما شخصی را در خیابان بگیریم و بدون شناخت پیشینه و اطلاع از وضعیت او و فقط براساس قیافه تشخیص بدهیم افغانستانی است، بدون هیچ سوال و جوابی او را رد مرز کنیم پذیرفتنی نیست. بعد هم اشاره کردم که عموما به‌خاطر شرایطی که افغانستان دارد دوباره برمی‌گردند.
بیایید فرض کنیم سازوکاری وجود دارد که با آن تشخیص می‌دهیم یک مهاجر افغانستانی قانونی یا غیرقانونی است، با این وضعیت با ایده رد مرز مهاجران غیرقانونی موافق هستید؟
در حال حاضر در ایران بین مهاجر افغانستانی قانونی و غیر قانونی از نظر حقوق شهروندی چندان تفاوتی وجود ندارد و هر دو دسته تقریبا مثل هم از بسیاری از حقوق محروم هستند، حقوقی مثل بیمه، بهداشت، آموزش، حساب بانکی، تردد و سکونت در بعضی مناطق و اماکن و… . تا وقتی که بین این دو تفاوتی نباشد برای مهاجری که به ایران می آید به طور قانونی آمدن هیچ امتیاز و جذابیتی نسبت به مهاجرت غیرقانونی ندارد. در نتیجه شاید حتی غیرقانونی آمدن برایش کم دردسرتر باشد. یعنی اصرار ما بر قانونی بودن باید مزایایی هم برای شخص مهاجر داشته باشد تا تشویق شود قانونی بیاید.
به این شکلی که الان با مهاجران برخورد می شود، به نظرم بی‌نتیجه است. من موافق این هستم که با یک سیاستگذاری درباره این گروه قانون مشخصی وجود داشته باشد، به اینها فرصت پناهندگی در ایران داده شود، در واقع معیارها، اصول و ضوابطی تعریف شود که یک شخص بتواند به عنوان پناهنده در یک کشور پذیرفته شود و از همه حقوق انسانی برخوردار باشد. اگر این امکان و توانایی وجود داشته باشد این چند میلیون افغانستانی که در ایران هستند شناسایی شوند می‌شود بررسی کرد که اگر مثلا جویای کار هستند به آنها ویزای کار داده شود که قواعد خودش را دارد. اگر فرد در ایران متولد شده این فرد باید شناسنامه ایرانی داشته باشد. این کارها باید انجام شود تا بتوانیم این جمعیت را ساماندهی کنیم، ولی نادیده گرفتن آنها کمکی به حل مسئله نمی‌کند، ایکنه گروهی نگرانی و هراس اخلاقی در جامعه ایجاد کنند که اینها مسئول مشکلات و آسیب‌های ما هستند چیزی را حل نمی‌کند. تنها راه موجود ساماندهی این جمعیت است که چه‌طور می‌توانند در اینجا پذیرفته شوند.
اگر گروهی از آنها معیارهای پذیرش در ایران نداشته باشند، با این گروه چه کار کنیم؟
مثلاً چه شرایطی وجود داشته باشد که آنها نتوانند آن را برآورده کنند؟
خیلی از کشورهای مهاجرپذیر این شرایط را می‌گذارند، مثلاً با توجه به وضعیت کشورشان نیروی کار ماهر را به عنوان مهاجر پذیرش می‌کنند، یا مثلاً متخصص حوزه‌های مشخصی را به عنوان مهاجر پذیرش می‌کنند، ما علیرغم نبود آمار می‌توانیم حدس بزنیم گروه زیادی از مهاجران افغانستانی در کشور افراد دارای تخصص نیستند، شاید در بهترین حالت همان نیروی کار ساده باشند. در این وضعیت هم همچنان باید آنها را حفظ کنیم؟
واقعیت این است که در ایران مهاجر افغانستانی را با هر تحصیلات و تخصصی به عنوان نیروی کار ماهر یا کارشناس یا متخصص استخدام نمی‌کنند. افغانستانی‌ها در ایران عموما به مشاغل سخت و بعضا زیان‌آور مشغول هستند و ظاهرا نیاز بازار کار ایران هم برای همین دسته از کارگران است و نه کارگر ماهر. پس ضوابط باید واقع بینانه باشد. بعد هم اگر کسی تا کنون به علت فضا و شرایط موجود چه قانونی یا غیرقانونی وارد ایران شده و دارد کار می‌کند، یعنی خودش دارد برای خودش درآمدزایی می‌کند، مثلا به کارهای ساختمانی مشغول است مرتکب جرم هم نشده ما با این آدم چه مشکلی داریم؟ اگر غیرقاتونی است می‌توان فرصت داد که اقامت قانونی بگیرد.
اینها نباید شناسایی شوند و هویت داشته باشند؟
اگر این توانایی وجود داشته باشد که این اشخاص که در اینجا کار می‌کنند شناسایی شوند، و موظف شوند که پاسپورت و اسناد هویتی بگیرند، باید از مزایای آن هم برخوردار شوند. مثلا کارگر افغانستانی که اقامت قانونی دارد مشمول قانون کار هم بشود، این‌که خیلی هم خوب است، کسی با این مخالفت ندارد.
۲۳۳۲۳۳
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